Prayer in school in Beausejour?

[brian]

So, I was browsing the internet and stumbled on this article from the Beausejour review.  It especially interested me because it is sort of local (it's been a while since I've been out there, what is it, something like an hour's drive?) and my mom and her family is from Beausejour and it a place that I could be potentially working in and around this summer.

http://cgi.bowesonline.com/pedro.php?id=210&x=story&xid=365985

Interestingly, a local pastor got involved by writing a letter to the editor a couple weeks later.

http://cgi.bowesonline.com/pedro.php?id=210&x=story&xid=369509

My snarky, Winnipeg Sun type comment:  Is it possible that even the pastor has never read Matthew 6:5-6?

My real comment:
Schools are and should remain secular institutions, especially as they receive government funding and all children have to go to them regardless of their religious beliefs.  I see no reason why the children who wish to pray can not pray at home after breakfast instead of at school.

Even if it is optional, it is a bad idea to divide the students based on whether they pray or leave.  It divides children up based on religious beliefs (something that is pretty much always a bad idea) and leaves atheist and non-Christian children open to teasing and bullying based on their religious beliefs.  Additionally, I have heard of some cases of school prayer being implemented poorly and in a discriminatory (well, more discriminatory) fashion in Manitoba, such as taking attendance during the prayer time and marking those who leave during the prayer late.  When it is implemented like that, then it is open and obvious discrimination against non-Christian students.

And anyone who asserts that we have three parts, mind, body, and soul or however they put it should be asked to prove it by secular means (ie:  don't just throw up a bible quote).  We are one part, two tops.

When I first heard that people were still saying the Lord's Prayer in schools in Manitoba a few months ago, I couldn't believe my ears.  It is 2008 in Canada, I can not believe that this is still an issue.  Maybe we should have separation of church and state in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms instead of that "supremacy of God" bit.  Where's Svend Robinson when you need him 

[Katie]

I find it amusing how they worded it as "the children are ALLOWED to say the Lord's Prayer". As if it were the children's idea in the first place, and not the school administration.

Also, the woman who claimed "Oh, back in the day our schools were inclusive as well as Christian! The Non-Christians just left the room!"

Prayer in schools is just a bad idea all together. You want your kids saying the Lord's Prayer more than twice a day? Send them to a private sectarian school. Homeschool them. Just don't assume that everyone else wants to follow your traditions.

[Steven]

I just re-read the Charter and I was amazed to find that there is not, in fact, any separation of church and state. All it says is: "Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:....a) freedom of conscience and religion...". But provincial governments can pass legislation to get around parts of the Charter by invoking that stupid "notwithstanding" clause. This disturbs me greatly.

[Jason]

The notwithstanding clause is rarely used, probably due to the hugely negative political implications it has for whatever government that uses it.  Moreover, it has a time limit (5 years iirc).  Canadian Parliament has never used it, it has only been invoked provincially/territorially and even then these attempts haven't been very successful.  I wouldn't worry too much about it.

As for the separation of church and state in Canada, it's true that the Charter doesn't contain an express provision like the US Constitution, but the Court has derived something like it implicitly. 

Law's Religion: Rendering Culture, Osgoode Hall Law Journal, Summer 2007:

Zylberberg v. Sudbury Board of Education (Director) involved a claim by three parents-one Jewish, one Muslim, and one non-practicing Christian-who challenged an Ontario Regulation requiring that schools open or close each day with a reading from the Christian Scriptures and a recitation of the Lord's Prayer. The Ontario Court of Appeal agreed and self-consciously reflected on the evolution of constitutional thought about the nature of religion:

In an earlier time, when people believed in the collective responsibility of the community toward some deity, the enforcement of religious conformity may have been a legitimate object of government, but since the Charter, it is no longer legitimate. With the Charter, it has become the right of every Canadian to work out for himself or herself what his or her religious obligations, if any, should be ....

...

In addition to describing a free society as one in which fundamental freedoms are equally enjoyed, Chief Justice Dickson in R. v. Big M Drug Mart Ltd. described the harm of the Sunday closing legislation as follows: “In proclaiming the standards of the Christian faith, the Act creates a climate hostile to, and gives the appearance of discrimination against, non-Christian Canadians.”

The Courts will use s. 2(a) of the Charter to the same effect of the US separation of church and state.

[Jason]

Also, the Supreme Court of Canada affirmed the Zylberberg decision in Russow v. British Columbia (Attorney General):

Majority judgment in Russow at para. 12:

In a case such as this, while I am not bound by the judgment of the Ontario Court of Appeal in the Zylberberg case, I would require a good deal of persuasion to reach an opposite conclusion to that of the majority in that case. I have read and considered at length not only the judgments of the Ontario Court of Appeal in Zylberberg but also those judgments of the Ontario Divisional Court from whose judgment the appeal in Zylberberg was taken to the Ontario Court of Appeal. Far from being persuaded by the dissenting reasons for judgment of Lacourciere J.A. in the Zylberberg case, I share without reservation the views of the majority.

[brian]

So, opening and closing school with prayer is not legal in Ontario and BC, and if someone were to go to court, they would probably find a similar decision?

[Steven]

Thanks for providing those rulings...it clears up the matter a little bit for me.

[trevor]

Yes, definitely some good info, Jason. It's interesting how a court's decision can have such a wide-reaching impact on the legal system.

That pastor's letter to the editor was horribly bigoted.

According to the 2001 Census in Canada, 77.8% of the people in Manitoba claim to be Christian (of various denominations), while less than 0.5% claim to be Muslim, and less than 0.5% claim to be Buddhist. It is neither fair, nor does it make sense, to say that if we - in a predominantly Christian community - choose to allow our children to recite the Lord's Prayer in school, then we must therefore include those other minority religious viewpoints.

This really speaks for itself. I say 77.8% of the time they do the lord's prayer, the other 22.2% of the time they do something from one of the "minority religious viewpoints." That makes the most sense democratically - that way everyone is equally pissed off. That's sure to solve tons of problems.

Human beings are triune beings, with a spirit, soul and body. And although the public school system does a great job of developing the soul (our mind, emotions and will) and our bodies (through physical education), for the most part, our eternal spirits have been neglected. By bringing prayer into the school system, we are nurturing and caring for our children's spirits by providing them with opportunities to develop their spirituality as well.

I have a body that includes a brain. That's it. My brain's my thinkin' muscle. Grouping together the mind, emotions and will into the 'soul' is eyebrow-raising, even for a pastor. Jordan also shows his naivety towards the school system - physical education is woefully inadequate for children. It's not as big of a deal in Canada perhaps, but obesity is a horrible problem facing way too many people already, and it's only becoming worse.

Although I realize that it is very easy for prayer to become merely a religious ritual, having the form of Godliness but denying the power thereof, I also am a firm believer in the fact that God answers prayer. And how could the Lord's Prayer change the lives of the children in our elementary school? As they begin praying for God's kingdom to come, and His will to be done; as they begin praying for forgiveness for their sins, and for the Lord to lead them not into temptation, and deliver them from evil... who knows if this could not be one of the catalysts to spark a moral reformation of goodness and kindness in our land?

I said the lord's prayer every weekday morning for about five years of my schooling (grades 2-6) and I can assure him that the students are just reciting everything by rote. He also makes the mistake of believing that we need some kind of 'moral reformation.' Every generation has people that think that society is falling apart, and that perhaps things were better in the previous generation. They weren't.

 

[Jason]

So, opening and closing school with prayer is not legal in Ontario and BC, and if someone were to go to court, they would probably find a similar decision?

Since the Ontario decision was affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada in Russow, and since the Supreme Court of Canada's rulings are binding on all provinces and territories, anyone that fought to maintain school prayer hasn't a prayer of a chance.  I'd be surprised if the matter ever saw trial again since the ruling is clear and decisive - people just won't bother.

Grouping together the mind, emotions and will into the 'soul' is eyebrow-raising, even for a pastor.

Heh...I suspect that the pastor is attempting to naturalize the soul somewhat, and that he's borrowing from the Platonic concept of soul: an amalgamation of reason, will and desire.

[brian]

This really speaks for itself. I say 77.8% of the time they do the lord's prayer, the other 22.2% of the time they do something from one of the "minority religious viewpoints." That makes the most sense democratically - that way everyone is equally pissed off. That's sure to solve tons of problems.

Technically, everyone won't be equally pissed off but pissed off in proportion to the percent of people who adhere to their religion in Manitoba