Eating meat: Where do you stand?

[Steven]

I was just curious as to what people's opinions are regarding the consumption of meat.

Myself, I'm not a huge meat-eater (maybe 2-3 times a week) and could probably go vegetarian if I didn't live in a household of carnivores. I don't really care for most meat with the exception of roast turkey on thanksgiving or christmas.

As far as ethics go, I'm not so sure. I definitely disagree with the horribly cruel treatment of these animals on factory farms. And also I'm well aware of the toll it takes on our planet to raise these animals. But I'm not so sure I'd say it is categorically wrong to eat meat. Maybe it's natural that we eat meat, as other animals do. Then again, other animals don't have the control over their environment that we have i.e. we could all choose to get our food from non-animal sources.

It raises all kinds of questions for me such as just because something's natural, does that make it okay (e.g. rape)? I do feel, on some level, that it's wrong to impose my will on a sentient creature that cannot choose for itself.

I do disagree with some things that PETA say, for example: even if testing on one animal would lead to a cure for AIDS, they would still be against it.

To me, this brings home the fact that, as atheists, skeptics, or humanists, we don't have an absolute moral code to follow. There is a lot of grey area. I almost hesitate to use the words 'right' and 'wrong' as they seem to imply an objective moral standard.

I realize all this is not very coherent but it reflects my conflicting thoughts on the matter. If someone has a convincing argument either way please feel free to set me straight!

[brian]

Honestly, I think I would go vegetarian except I live at home with the kind of parents who ask "how much hamburger do you need?" when you get a recipe for veggie burgers.  I think it would be a lot harder for me to give up dairy and go vegan though (I like cheese).

The ethics are a big issue that I'm sure most people can agree on, but so is concern for the environment.

Regarding whether it is natural or not, I don't think it is natural for there to be six billion of us so I think we should definitely try to go easy on the environment by eating lower on the food chain.  And we do a lot of things that aren't "natural" to begin with, so it's not really a big point.  Plus there are a lot of meat substitutes out there, and they don't taste that bad (Garbonzo burger at Degrees and "B"LT at Mondragon are way better than any burger at any fast food joint), although I bet a lot of the people resistant to vegetarianism have never tried any of these substitutes.

[Steve]

I think plants are just as unfairly treated as other organisms we eat.  Plants have a highly developed circulatory system, they procreate, defecate, and eat.  When you die and begin to rot in the ground, you will eventually enter into the soil and either plants or bacteria will eat you.  Plants are life and when you eat them you cause a cessation of that life.  It is the exact same as taking the life of an animal.  The end result is the same.  To live, something else must die.  It is a cycle that has persisted since the dawn of time and will always continue. 

The question comes to choice.  Do we kill an an organism that can move and make noise, or one that cannot?  Regardless of the choice we have to eat. 

Human dentition tells me that evolution planned for us to include meat as at least part of our diet.  Meat is the king when it comes to protein, creatine, and linoleic acids.  Despite what many vegetarians claim, you cannot get the same amount gram for gram of protein from vegetables.  One chicken breast contains almost 22g of protein.  To get this much from a vegetable source, like beans, you would have to eat 3 cups of beans.  That is a lot of beans.  I am a big fat guy and I can't eat that much.

I have no qualms with people being vegetarian, and at times in my life I eat much more vegetables than I do meat.  For now I need meat.  My weightlifting regimen requires protein.  Protein powder is an ok supplement, but still has more calories and not as much protein as 1 chicken breast.

[january]

^^^Really? Killing a pig and pulling up a carrot are morally analogous? Plants don't have nervous systems, do they? I think feeling pain/ pleasure is what qualifies something to be ethically noteworthy. It's not an arbitrary standard...How else do you qualify interests?

I was vegan for a year and became horribly anemic. I have absorbtion issues. But you know, I think if I emailed Peter Singer, he'd tell me to suck it up and bite the utilitarian bullet.

It's not the death that I find wrong, it's the life led by most animals we consume.

We don't need meat. It might be inconvenient to replace it, but I think if you agree something is wrong...you take measures to prevent it. Factory farming is evil and gross. So is fur. So is many of the unnecessary lab experiments conducted on animals. I've seen some horrific videos...animals screaming while skinned alive, their skulls stomped on. Turkeys sexually abused, limbs torn off, beaks cut off...this is par for the course. The more meat we consume, the more this takes place. I think if you really think you need meat, learn to hunt deer, rabbits, partridge...Or buy locally farm raised meat. Something that says 'free range' is not exactly a guarantee that the animal wasn't treated with a lot of cruelty.

I do think that animals are part of the moral community. Obviously they don't have the same rights, but they do have some. They have nervous systems. They need not be tortured. Saying 'we need meat', even if it were true, doesn't justify that kind of treatment. I think even non-vegetarians could go to the trouble of at least finding a more ethical source of flesh food.

[wordwan]

Hm. I think we should eat aborted babies. How's that sound?

You get your meat. The animal was already dead. You save a carrot from squirming around on the ground while you wrest it from the soil.

Heather

[X]

I eat meat.
I wear leather.
I like both.

Am I, therefore, a bad person?

[january]

I eat meat.
I wear leather.
I like both.

Am I, therefore, a bad person?

Well, according to some people. I think we can do bad things and not be bad people, necessarily. I mean, I eat meat too sometimes (bad girl).

It's not a question of whether we like these things. It's a question of whether we think cruelty to animals is justifiable to satisfy our desires (because it's not so clear that we need these things...certainly we need not torture our livestock, but we do in the name of profit).

I totally recommend Peter Singer's argument about speciesism. I'm sure it would pop up on a google search. He makes some very persuasive points on the matter. I personally think it migh be okay to kill animals for food, if it's done as humanely as possible, and if they live relatively okay lives leading up to that. Cutting off turkey toes and beaks is the reality, unfortunately. Pumping cows full of hormones, etc.

[Brennan]

I am for eating meat. I support, in general, the notion for better treatment and living conditions of animals before they’re slaughtered (which is appalling in a lot of places in the world).

Further on the topic of ethics, I place humans above animals. It’s true from a logical point of view that if you place humans with an 'X' and any organism with a 'Y' it would be logically absurd to treat ‘X’ better than ‘Y’. I attribute the distinction of humans to advancement of the species. Where advancement is concerned I place cats and dogs in the category of animals that should not be harmed and I do this purely out of fondness for the animals, as opposed to say chickens and cows which I eat. I suppose I’m a hypocrite after stating two contradicting view-points in this paragraph. Looking at the situation, that’s a rare hypocrisy I’m content to live with.

[ebell]

I also have mixed feelings about this topic.  I think as humans, we are naturally carnivorous creatures.  I think as far as nutrition is concerned, the protein that you get from eating meat is important to a healthy diet.  I know there are those who would argue in favor of meatless alternatives, but that's their opinion, and this is mine!  Sometimes nothing beats a nice thick juicy steak...mmmm...
On the other side of the coin, I am not a really big meat eater.  In fact, I often have to make an effort to include it in my diet.  Sometimes I turn myself off of eating meat all together for long periods of time when I start to think that I'm actually made of meat.  We only eat certain animals, but even the cute animals and people are made up of the same thing.  It just sort of disgusts me sometimes.
Even though I am 'pro-meat', I certainly agree that the way the animals are treated is atrocious and needs to be changed.  I live in an area where there is a lot of farming going on, and I've seen and heard some things that make me want to quit eating meat on principal alone.  I really don't think it's necessary for these animals to have to suffer their whole lives until they are finally killed (not always humainely).  There was recently a fire at a barn (I believe somewhere near Lockport) which killed 700 hogs, and it really got me thinking.  Even though they don't speak our language, they feel pain the same as we do, and if that barn had been full of 700 people, it would have been a major tragedy...not just a major insurance claim.

[brian]

Hm. I think we should eat aborted babies. How's that sound?

You get your meat. The animal was already dead. You save a carrot from squirming around on the ground while you wrest it from the soil.

I wonder... can pro-choice vegetarians eat eggs while pro-life vegetarians can't...

"Why is it that when it is a human, it is called an abortion but when it is a chicken it is called an omelet?" -George Carlin

[january]

Hm. I think we should eat aborted babies. How's that sound?

You get your meat. The animal was already dead. You save a carrot from squirming around on the ground while you wrest it from the soil.

I wonder... can pro-choice vegetarians eat eggs while pro-life vegetarians can't...

"Why is it that when it is a human, it is called an abortion but when it is a chicken it is called an omelet?" -George Carlin

Well, for what it's worth, chicken eggs tend to be unfertilized when we eat them. So the analogy would be closer to eating ovaries.

[Steven]

Hm. I think we should eat aborted babies. How's that sound?

You get your meat. The animal was already dead. You save a carrot from squirming around on the ground while you wrest it from the soil.

I wonder... can pro-choice vegetarians eat eggs while pro-life vegetarians can't...

"Why is it that when it is a human, it is called an abortion but when it is a chicken it is called an omelet?" -George Carlin

Well, for what it's worth, chicken eggs tend to be unfertilized when we eat them. So the analogy would be closer to eating ovaries.

I've always wondered how chickens "did it"...

[january]

I imagine the hen calls the rooster over for some cocktails...

Oh man, I couldn't help myself.

[Gerry]

The protein found in meat is unquestionably the richest source of protein, however the amount that our culture eats is way more than is necessary to live healthily.

Meat is also incredibly inefficient at transferring nutrients when you look at the life of the animal.
The land used to grow animals and the food to feed them could grow far far more non-meat food than the animal could provide. This is the reason behind factory farming -- to increase efficiency without regard for the welfare of the animals. It's pretty disgusting.

If we were to cut our meat consumption in half, use the land to grow vegetation and treat the animals we do eat with the respect that they deserve, we'd have more abundant food and a healthier society -- physically and ethically.

[Steve]

I think a large issue here is the ascribing of animals with human emotions and sentiment.  People do it all the time.  Our brains are uniquely wired to feel the things we do and they are substantially more sophisticated then that of a chicken.  Chickens don’t cry, chickens don’t feel love, chickens don’t undergo deep examinations of conscience when they eat bugs, worms, or each other for that matter.  They react purely on instinct. 

If you can provide me 1 peer reviewed scientific study that says chickens have highly developed emotions and beweep their imprisoned state, I will stop eating factory farmed chickens. 

Vegetarians can be zealots just like religious fanatics.  People these days say it is wrong to force Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, etc. values on other people.  Vegetarians saying that eating meat is morally wrong is in the exact same camp as Christians saying fucking before marriage is wrong. 

I think another problem with this issue is that people don’t think logistically about the economics of switching to a completely agrarian style of diet and living. 

1.)   Farms require much more space than slaughter houses.
2.)   Not every tract of land on the face of the earth is arable

So this begs the question, where do we get more arable land to devote to agriculture?  The Brazilians have the answer, bulldozing large acres of rainforest.  So I can enjoy my whole grain bread, thousands of species of unique animals and plants can get wiped off the face of the earth.  Medicine can suffer as well by deforestation.  The super antibiotic Vancomycin, which is our last line of defense against superbugs like Methyiclin Resistant Stapphylococcus Aureus (MRSA), was found in the soil of the rainforest.  Granted this is an extreme example, as demand for agricultural areas grow, people will need to encroach on the rainforests. 

What about areas with the highest incidence of starvation?  Why don’t they just plant some crops in sub-Saharan Africa?  They can’t.  The land is not arable.  Even if we gut the Canadian Prairies, the American Mid West, and the slopes of China, I don’t think there is enough land to provide the current human population with enough food.  If simply farming was the solution, why is there starvation in the world at all?

Here is another issue, some people have this idyllic vision of cutting away chains and breaking down doors and watching grateful animals frolicking off into the forests drunk and happy with their freedom.  This is bullshit.  We will have billions of free chickens released into the wild, breeding like wildfire and putting enormous ecological strain on virtually every ecosystem on the planet.  Even more gruesome, these animals no nothing else then their farm life, they wouldn’t know how to survive on their own and would likely starve to death.

Nature tells us how we must eat, eating too much meat or too much vegetation have equal ecological impacts.  Finding more sustainable practices on both ends is the best solution. 

So I will ad another proviso to my earlier challenge.  Give me the peer reviewed study on chicken emotions, and a PROVEN ecological plan for feeding everyone on earth on a solely agrarian basis, and I will be a vegetarian.  Until then the tenets of vegetarianism are as much a fairy story to me as the ten commandments.